Tribulation

[gibby]

What are your views on the rapture theory and the tribulation?  Pre-trib rapture, mid-trib, post-trib, no rapture at all? 

[msmith]

Pre-tribulation rapture.

[James Rondon]

I believe that the rapture and the Second Coming are one and the same event.

[Kevin]

My understanding of this is that the rapture, (1Thes 4:17) will accompany the Lord's return. This second coming will occur after the great tribulation (post Trib), I believe

[msmith]

Hey Kevin, something we disagree on! That doesn’t happen very often. 

Are you sure that's your final answer? 

[Kevin]

No Marc, I think it unwise to have a closed mind on the subject either way.
The thoughts expressed above reflect my current understanding and have not as yet been affected by argument to the contrary.

[msmith]

My understanding is that the rapture (1 Tees 4: 17, 1 Cor 15: 51-58) is not the second coming of the Jesus because He does not return (set foot) to set up the new heaven & new earth (Rev 21: 1) at that time. The rapture is when Jesus takes His church out of this current world prior to the Great Tribulation.

The rapture removes church-age saints from the furry of God’s wrath, understood as the great Tribulation during end time prior to the our Lord establishing His millennial Kingdom (Rev 20).

Scripture speaks many times that the church-age saints will escape God’s wrath during the tribulation. See: 1 Thes 1: 9-10, 1 Thes 5: 9 Romans 5: 9 & Rev 3: 10

In my view this supports the pre-tribulation rapture. Does this mean I have a closed mind on the issue? No, I’m always open for other views and if Scripture supports them I may well be swayed. Can anyone show us which Scriptures they use to come to their understanding?

[Kevin]

My understanding is that the rapture (1 Tees 4: 17, 1 Cor 15: 51-58) is not the second coming of the Jesus because He does not return (set foot) to set up the new heaven & new earth (Rev 21: 1) at that time. The rapture is when Jesus takes His church out of this current world prior to the Great Tribulation. [/qauote]

Marc, there are two points to note with the passages that you refer to:
Firstly, 1 Thes 4:16, "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. "  Does clearly indicate the personal return of the Lord, so that He is present at the time of verse 17.
Agreed, the text does not say that He sets foot on the Earth, but it does not state that He doesn't either. (How many return comings of the Lord are on the books?)
Myself, I am looking at verses 13 onward here and it seems clear enough that Paul is addressing concerns held by some, that those who die before the Lord's return will have somehow missed out. Note carefully that Paul clearly refers to The Lord's return in verses 14 & 15 EDIT:: and that seems clearly to be the second coming that people are concerned about. END EDIT.
Secondly, 1 Cor 15:51~ contains language suggestive of the consummation of the age. Consider: verse 52 and the 'last trumpet'. This event ties in with  1 Thes 4:13-17, and the last Trumpet is dealt with in more detail in Rev 10:7. The last trumpet is 'The Last Trumpet. There were seven angels each with a trumpet to sound and each trumpet blast introduces a series of events, the last one ushering in the completion of God's prophetic revelations.  Also 1 Cor 15:51~ in referring to Isa 25:8, is looking toward the final redemption of people, when Death is swallowed up in victory.  If there remains a perion of tribulation after this time during which myriads of people will perish, I'd say Death is still alive and prospering.
 

The rapture removes church-age saints from the furry of God’s wrath, understood as the great Tribulation during end time prior to the our Lord establishing His millennial Kingdom (Rev 20).

Scripture speaks many times that the church-age saints will escape God’s wrath during the tribulation. See: 1 Thes 1: 9-10, 1 Thes 5: 9 Romans 5: 9 & Rev 3: 10

Marc, these passages refer to the Christians being spared/saved/delivered from the wrath of God.  They do not refer to tribulation periods, but rather God's eternal condemnation.

In my view this supports the pre-tribulation rapture. Does this mean I have a closed mind on the issue? No, I’m always open for other views and if Scripture supports them I may well be swayed. Can anyone show us which Scriptures they use to come to their understanding?

Lets take a look at Rev Ch 7.  First of all we are told of the angel coming from the East whose job it is to seal the servants of God. These servants we are told number 144,000; 12,000 of each of the 12 tribes of Israel.  I can see a problem here with thinking that this elect lot are national Jews, why? because we 'gentiles' have been adopted, grafted into the Olive Tree. cf Rom 11:17-24 Jer 11:16.  It would follow then that our inheritance will include being members of the various houses of Israel, and included in the 144,000.  If this is true, then the 144,000 simply refers to the completeness of the final role call. John is next shown a numberless multitude of saints who have come out of the 'great tribulation'. Are these not also grafted into the 'Olive Tree'?
Now if the 144,000 does not include the Church, and the Church does not pass through the 'great tribulation', where are we? we have been overlooked?
We are told by Paul that we have the 'seal of God' cf Eph 4:30; and Rev 9:4 is clearly talking of great tribulation and the sealed saints, that is the 144,000, are certainly there at that time. Lets also look at Matt 24:21.  It is clear from Jesus' words that He is referring to the 'great tribulation', it is the Grandaddy of them all! It is so bad that it threatens all human life on Earth, but it is shortened for the sake of the Elect; why?
If the Church is not present here on Earth during the 'Great Tribulation' period, why would the severity of that tribulation matter a cracker to the elect?
Marc, all this proves nothing conclusive, but I hope you can see that there is fair reason to consider other than a pre trib second coming.

[msmith]

Marc, there are two points to note with the passages that you refer to:
Firstly, 1 Thes 4:16, "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. "  Does clearly indicate the personal return of the Lord, so that He is present at the time of verse 17.
Agreed, the text does not say that He sets foot on the Earth, but it does not state that He doesn't either.

1 Thessalonians 4: 17:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The text implies that Jesus is and remains in the air during His call to the saints of the church. 

Myself, I am looking at verses 13 onward here and it seems clear enough that Paul is addressing concerns held by some, that those who die before the Lord's return will have somehow missed out.

I fully agree, the reason that Paul penned these verses was to address the saints of Thessalonica and their concerns about those saints that had died prior to Christ’s return. It teaches the imminent and impending coming of Christ for His church.

Secondly, 1 Cor 15:51~ contains language suggestive of the consummation of the age. Consider: verse 52 and the 'last trumpet'. This event ties in with  1 Thes 4:13-17, and the last Trumpet is dealt with in more detail in Rev 10:7. The last trumpet is 'The Last Trumpet.

Interesting point! I will have to study this further to see how it compares throughout scripture.

Marc, these passages refer to the Christians being spared/saved/delivered from the wrath of God.  They do not refer to tribulation periods, but rather God's eternal condemnation.

I believe that God’s wrath refers to judgment which is what is going on during the Great Tribulation. I think that it is feasible that it refers to both the tribulation and God’s eternal judgment.

Lets take a look at Rev Ch 7.  First of all we are told of the angel coming from the East whose job it is to seal the servants of God. These servants we are told number 144,000; 12,000 of each of the 12 tribes of Israel.  I can see a problem here with thinking that this elect lot are national Jews, why? because we 'gentiles' have been adopted, grafted into the Olive Tree.

We have had the discussion about the 144,000 before. I believe it to be a literal number of descendants of Israel. In the OT the Lord worked through Israel, in the NT He works through His church which includes Gentiles who are grafted into the true vine through faith in Christ Jesus. Prior to the time of the Great Tribulation the church age saints and church will be removed leaving a remnant of Israel (144,000) to continue God’s work through witnessing thus producing the numberless multitude of saints. They too will be Saved but not through the Lord’s NT church rather through His first chosen or “elect”, Israel.

It is interesting that in the book of Revelation the focus is on the church in chapters 1-3 but the true church is not mentioned again until chapter 21, an indication that the church is not present on earth during the Great Tribulation.

Good points that you bring up Kevin! I will surely be studying this topic deeper.

Thanks &
God Bless,
Marc

[Kevin]

Hello Marc, you posted:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
The text implies that Jesus is and remains in the air during His call to the saints of the church. 

 
This is illustrative of why I believe we must be open to reviewing our understanding from time to time.  Not to dismiss your point out of hand, but does not a literal understanding here invite the view that Jesus and the raptured saints remain suspended in the air for an indefinite period?  Of course we know this is not what is to be! So we may fairly assume that at some point in time (not specified in the text), there will be a shift in venue. Of course it might not be to the ground, but it might be too.
Then again, 

It is interesting that in the book of Revelation the focus is on the church in chapters 1-3 but the true church is not mentioned again until chapter 21, an indication that the church is not present on earth during the Great Tribulation.

That is an interesting observation Marc, one I do not wish to discount out of hand.  I can see a major problem with it in ch.12.  It is difficult to argue against the fact that the Church is clearly mentioned within this chapter.  v5 is clearly referring to Messiah, the woman might be Mary, but is I think more likely either the Church, or a feminine aspect of Israel,maybe the embodiement of the multiplying power of the Kingdom of God?  Very very difficult imagery.  There are indications that the early persecution of the Church is mentioned in this chapter, but one thing is clear, whoever this woman is, she has issue that keep the testimony of Jesus, and the commands of God.  It is difficult to apply this quality to later saints whose conversion occurs after the removal of the Church and the commencement of  great tribulation, without mention of their repentance.
blessings

[Wayne Perry]

I favor pre-tribulation. My reasons:
(Symbolically) In exodus we recall the children were without water and God instructed Moses to strike "the rock" and water came forth. The "rock" being a symbol of Christ that gives "living waters". On a second occasion when in need of water God told Moses to speak to "the rock" but Moses in his anger struck it. Moses disobeyed God's instruction and was not allowed to enter the "promised land". This illustrates that God would not allow Christ to be "stricken" but once and we as the body of Christ will not be "stricken" by God's wrath during the Great Tribulation. To do so would be "striking" Christ again.

2Thessalonians 2 speaks to the revealing of the "son of perdition" (the anti-Christ). Looking at verses 7 and 8:

(2Th 2:7)  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

(2Th 2:  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The word letteth means to hinder or hold back. So who or what is hindering the revealing of the anti-Christ (the Wicked one)? Would it not have to be those who are the "body of Christ", the believers, His Church? If so, then these must be taken out of the way before the "revealing" and eventually the Great Tribulation can occur....thus pre-trib...

Wayne

[Salt & Light]

Thanks for the input Wayne!

That is an interesting parallel looking at the verses in Exodus from that perspective. I haven’t ever considered them in that view. While I too am pre-tribulation, I’ll ponder this a bit.

God Bless

[Kevin]

And Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly together before the rock; and he said to them, “Hear now, you rebels! Must we bring water for you out of this rock?” Then Moses lifted his hand and struck the rock twice with his rod; and water came out abundantly, and the congregation and their animals drank.
Then the LORD spoke to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not believe Me, to hallow Me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them.”
 Numbers 20:10-12 Nkjv

Hope this helps with study,
God Bless

[Wayne Perry]

Marc & Kevin,
Sorry for not including chapter and verse in the first part of my post....so...

(1st episode)
(Exo 17:6)  Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.

(2nd episode)
(Num 20:  Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink.

As Kevin has shown (Num 20:12) deals with the punishment I spoke of:

(Num 20:12)  And the LORD spoke unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

Wayne
 

[anonymous]

I watched a documentary recently about the Christian apocalypse and Christians views on it. It seems apparent that older Christians believe the rapture is going to happen very soon, while younger ones believe it will happen later on. The reason seems to be that younger Christians want to be able to live out their lives. It almost seems to cycle this way. For a very long time, people have thought that the apocalypse was close, yet we're still here talking about it.